Lessons From Leadership Transition

Jim: Hello friends, back again for a next episode of the Next Sunday Podcast. Jim Shepard from Janerys here with my co-host, the one and only Frank Beer.
 
Frank: Hey, how are you today, sir? Good to see you, sir. I'm doing great. It's a good day.
 
Jim: Well, it's always a good day to be in this room doing podcasting. Sling a little content out here.
 
Frank: Yeah, that's it. So, what we've got today, I think this is pretty cool because we did transition here at Janerys from my role as CEO to you, February of last year. And so, we're about what, 15 months into that, we're about one year away since we did the episode on it. So it was fresh then.
 
Jim: Thought it might be good to say, hey, what does transition look like at Janerys one year later? That's great.
 
Frank: Well, I guess one thing we can say is we're still here. That's the good part of it. Shocker. Breaking news.
 
Jim: And we're still having fun. We still like each other.
 
Frank: But, you know, I think part of the reason why we thought this might be good to talk about is you and I both have had so many conversations in the last year about, hey, tell me what's going on at Janerys. And when we tell them the story of succession and how smoothly it's gone for us, the reaction is — and it's unfortunate — because in our space, the faith-based sector, particularly churches, good succession stories are way too few. And that's unfortunate.
 
Jim: That is so unfortunate. So, we're not saying this to brag by any stretch of the imagination. We want this number one to be an encouragement that it could go well for you. It could actually even go extremely well. And maybe just to unpack some of what has gone on behind the scenes with you and with me and with us to help others say, well, gosh, that might be the nugget that could unlock it for us.
 
Frank: I think that's great, Jim. And I do have people ask questions all the time. The number one — and we will get there at some point today — is like, wait, you guys still work together? Like, how does that work? And it's been amazing. I would start by saying I can't remember if I said this a year ago, but I'll double down if I said it a year ago, and if not, for the first time: you did the hard work. And the closer and longer we've been doing this, I realized that that's the hard work. The hard work was the heart work. And while I think I needed to come in with the right posture, of course, at the end of the day, you had to do the identity work and the heart work and figure out if you were really ready for this transition and this timing and how the Lord was guiding you. And so seeing you do that has caused me to do early heart work — not on succession, but just on intentionality and how I manage life professionally. I've even got professional help and a psychologist to help me just get better. Not because we're struggling, not because there's a problem, but I saw you do the heart work so well. It's given me something to aspire to, to improve. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that hard work that you had to do.
 
Jim: Yeah. I think the way that I see it more and more clearly, Frank, is in a relay race there are two parts to it. There is the baton release and then there's the baton embrace. So it has to be released from the one runner and then embraced by the next one. And both are important. It's only after you as the one who's handing off the baton have gone deep inside and said, what are the things that live inside of me that can get in the way of this going well? And I think we said it on the original podcast — I identified seven, but only two were deal breakers. I knew there were two of them that could wreck everything. And if I didn't deal with those, then it wasn't fair for me to hand it off to anybody, much less you. I mean, you were the obvious person at the time. It wasn't fair to the organization. Ultimately, it wouldn't be fair to me, even to my own self. And those two things were identity and control. And identity is where I just, some days I had my business card out and I was just looking at it and talking to the Lord and saying, that's not who I am, is it? That's just what I do. But I'd been doing it for 28 and a half years. I mean, I don't care how much you try not to, that becomes ingrained in you at some point in time. And you're now letting go of that. And not only that, for the first time, letting go of that title to someone who doesn't own an equity interest. Well, now I own the whole thing as of 2022 because Nancy and I — when our last business partner, Brad Leaper, was ready to exit — we decided that was the season for us to own the whole thing so that we can speak into the future of Janerys. So the next CEO becomes the next step in that whole progression. Because if you want it to be better and greater after you're done, then a big part of that is picking the right leader. As the one who's going to be handing the baton off, I've got to make sure that I'm not holding on to it — because here's what happens. If I'm holding on to it, let's go back to the running analogy. You're still running beside me trying to say, hey, I need you to let go of this because I can't run fast. As long as you're holding on to this, I can't do what I'm supposed to do. And that's true in leadership succession as well. And then the control thing. At some point, I said to myself, well, I'm not really letting go of control because I still own 100%. And that was the day I was like, that was the dumbest thing you could have said, Jim. Because that would be unhealthy. If you're going to just walk around and say, hey, I may not be the CEO, but I'm still the owner — and you're going to throw that card down everywhere — that's not going to work. And you've got to be willing to let go of that. And I didn't do it perfectly, but I did it well enough that it's worked pretty well for the two of us.
 
Frank: From my experience, you have done it really well. It doesn't hurt to have somebody who takes the baton and runs with it as well as you do. It's not hard to let go when you see somebody and you're clear.
 
Jim: And that's where it went back to, Frank. You and I didn't know this — when I asked you in February of 2022, knowing that I would be buying Brad out and that I would become the sole owner of Janerys on June 1st of that year — I needed somebody to sit in the room with me and to listen to me and give me a place to process the things that I needed to process. What you and I didn't know was that was the start of a relationship built on trust and respect and vulnerability and honesty and life sharing and all the other things that happened in that room. We were storing away relational capital for when that moment came — and then all of a sudden it revealed itself. We already had all that on deposit. And for many people who are doing succession, they don't have that, especially if you're bringing someone in from the outside. Obviously, if you're promoting someone who is an insider, there becomes a bigger opportunity to do that kind of thing. And lots of churches have that. You and I have seen some of them — they've done it exceptionally well, some of them they haven't done well — but it's building that respect and that trust so that when the day comes, a lot of it's already been dealt with.
 
Frank: That's so good, Jim.
 
Jim: So, when it first came out — when we were starting to process with a little bit bigger circle of people that we were going to be making this announcement — what were some of the questions you were receiving by those that trusted and loved you most?
 
Frank: It wasn't exactly the same question in words, but it was the same question. I think the top one was, well, what are you going to do now? Like, are you jumping off? Are you getting out of here? And what I had to say — when this phrase occurred to me, I knew it would help a lot of people grasp what I was trying to do. I said, I'm not doing this so I can leave quicker. I'm doing it so I can stay longer. I'm in my early 70s. I don't feel like I've lost my fastball, per se, but I've been carrying the weight of this company for a long time. I've had great business partners. Linscott was great. Allan was great. Brad was great. They were all in different ways and different seasons. But all of that was working together for me to begin to let go and make room — because now, without the weight of the company on my shoulder, I can stay longer. I'm not a workaholic, but I don't have an end date. I need to wake up and have something meaningful to go to. And this — apart from my relationship with God and my relationship with my family — is the most meaningful thing I have. And so to be able to do that was big. For them it was like, oh wow, we get the best of both worlds. We get the leader for our future, and you're going to stick around. I just move to a position called chairman. Frank is going to run the company with Brandon and Leanne.
 
Frank: Yeah, it was a valuable moment pretty early on where you solidified the words you had said with actions when you came into our home office team meeting and said, hey, I need to bring some clarity into this meeting. You actually reached out to me and said, hey, can I come talk to the team for a minute? Because you were getting CC'd on random emails and you said, let me be clear. We are not transitioning. We have transitioned. And it was a powerful moment. If there was any confusion, that eliminated any remnants of people trying to play chess. If you're sending an email to Frank, you do not need to CC me so I know about it. If Frank feels like I need to know about it, he'll tell me. And if he doesn't, then it wasn't worth me seeing in the first place. That was invaluable. That really helped set me up for success. Early on we were also in the process of renovating our offices and renewing our lease, and you just made room for us to make it our space and make it home — without a million opinions. You could have easily said, hey, I like this paint color — but no questions on any of that, which was just really helpful.
 
Jim: It's going to be your workspace and I trust you guys enough that whatever you come up with — even if it might be different than what I would have done — I'm going to love it. And I do.
 
Frank: So let's talk about sitting in the meetings. Because there are days where you show up to the office and we're having meetings and you're not in those meetings, and then there are days where sometimes we need you in those meetings and we ask you to be in those meetings. What's that been like on some of those days?
 
Jim: You know, Frank, we all have points of insecurity in our lives. The first couple of times that I saw that happening, they were sort of like, am I supposed to be in that meeting? And then just the clarification came — no, you're not. That's why you did this. So you don't have to sit in there. And Jim, if you sit in there, just your shadow in the room implies that you may not trust everybody to do what you've said you've trusted them to do. So why don't you go down to your office and do some of the things that you need to take care of and feel really good — because hey, by the way, this is the moment you and Nancy have prayed for for many, many years: that you would have a faithful leader and leadership team with integrity, a leader who understands what you would do with this company if you had another 20 to 25 years to run it, and who's faithfully committed to making sure that that happens. And so it wasn't that there wasn't a little struggle, but that victory moment. And now when I see y'all going, it's like, have at it. If you need me, I'm here. But if you don't, that was a good thing, too.
 
Frank: It's a powerful statement to remind people — hey, that meeting happening is an answer to prayer. And I think often times that can get lost in transition because the results of that meeting may not be exactly what you would do or the process you would follow. But it's been cool to watch you process that and back it up with your actions and words in a way that some people would like to think they're doing, but there are moments where they don't recognize their own shadow in the room. They may not even be meaning to do it, but it can kind of derail things. And you've been so open-handed and willing to go, no, no, no. This is our path forward. Let's work through it together. And you remind me often: I'm here. If you need anything, holler. Let me know.
 
Jim: So, what's it been like from your perspective as you've related to the team and gotten adjusted to your role?
 
Frank: I think it's been fantastic. I have days where I'm like, I can't believe I get to do this. That's more days than not. I am super grateful for the work and the support of the consultants and the team. I can't imagine doing anything else now. You and I get along so well. Behind closed doors, choosing to hang out and spend time together — we're going to a conference tomorrow and we chose to take the same flight so we can ride over to the conference together. It's not like we need to avoid each other. We want to be around each other, which is awesome. I think I've had to learn in this context that while we're wired so much the same in vision and direction, the way we lead and the things we choose to empower and hold tight are different. And so recognizing that for the team, it's probably more different than I first perceived. I thought that would transfer. Realizing that the team may have had more change than you and I have had, even though I didn't come in and change the color of the logo or the name or the mission statement. But it's been interesting for me to learn how to lead the team and help them translate the differences between us. My big question I keep receiving is: how's it going really? And specifically, what's it like working with Jim? I mean, you succeeded him and he's still there. Nobody thinks that can work.
 
Jim: That's right.
 
Frank: And to the point where I've had people that are beyond acquaintances — but not my closest friends — that have double clicked multiple times. They'll be like, how's it going? And I'll say something. They'll say, well, I know that, but I mean, how's it going really? And they're not looking for dirt. They're wanting to be helpful. They're wanting to be able to speak and encourage and help me. And I'm like, no, no. I've got all kinds of business ideas and thoughts and ways I want to serve churches and schools — but in the transition, I don't have any other words because there's not anything else to explain: it's going really, really well. And so I genuinely believe that, but me doubling down on that statement has actually moved backward a few relationships, because I think there are some leaders that are like, okay, let me know when you're ready to open up. They're not in a mean way, just, oh, our relationship must have changed because you used to tell me. They're not looking for dirt. They're just looking for something that's not there. And I've had to navigate that with a couple of people and really double down and even get a little forceful and say, no, no, no. You don't understand. If anything, you can help me because I feel guilty because it's going so well. If you want to help me, help me navigate that. And so that comes not because of us, not because of Janerys, but once again, their experience and what they've seen out there. And so now if I hear anybody that's navigating transition or talks to me about transition in their job, I feel a bigger weight for it now in my prayer, because I've seen it go so well for us. But I've also seen such skepticism. It's reminded me how hard transition really is. If anything, it's caused me to be extra grateful for what God has coordinated between us. I'm really thankful. But I also feel the weight that it's not always how it plays out.
 
Jim: And for you, there have been two teams. You've had to navigate the leadership of the home office team, which you've got great proximity to pretty much all the time. But then the consulting team, which is virtual most of the year but we come together three times a year. I've watched you navigate both of those, and they're at different paces. I hear from those guys, I was just sitting around minding my own business and the phone was ringing — Frank, I didn't have anything, I hadn't initiated anything. Frank's just calling to check to see how I'm doing. And in my mind I was like, yeah, I know what he's doing. Building relationships, building capital, building credibility. It's not inauthentic. It's totally who he is as a leader. He wants to make sure that, I've got you. If there's something that you need right now, I'm here for you. Because a lot of times I think the team is like, oh well, Jim and Frank are busy. But part of our job is to serve you. To serve you and help you thrive and flourish. So don't apologize when you need some time from us.
 
Frank: Right. I told Nancy first and then I told you — and the team might be hearing this for the first time — but at our recent February summit when we were together, we had everybody in the room and I was sitting there midway through and I was just watching the team respond to you. And I had this moment where I was like, this is his room now. It must be like a senior pastor when it does go well and he's still there, and he watches his successor, and he sees the people responding to his successor. Not that they don't care about you, because I have a role in the room — but it's not that role anymore. You have that role. Watching the team just lean in and respond to you, I said to Nancy that night when she asked how the meetings went, I said, sweetheart, I think we had another history moment. The last time we had a history moment was in 2024 when you led that session and I said, hey, they're ready for Frank. And now I was like, I watched the room. It's his room now. I've got a place in that room and they've got the best of both worlds — they've got their leader for the future and they've got me. But it's his room and they're ready to respond to his leadership.
 
Jim: That's a big moment, man.
 
Frank: I felt it. I felt the shift in the room. It was undeniable.
 
Jim: One of the things, Frank, that you have been so helpful with is there are times I've got to come to you. I may think I know the decision. I may think I have line of sight to all the information, but I don't know the history. I don't know the context. I don't know whether something's been tried before or why somebody's asking me a particular question or why they phrase something a certain way. So there are times where we connect and I'm just like, just give me a little context. Is there more to this story or more to what they're asking about? And it's rarely problematic. But whether it be with a client or with one of our consultants or home office team, those moments, those nuggets of wisdom are gold and invaluable. And you've said to me, yeah, that's coming from a few years back. We could have handled that better. We could have done this differently — or, no, yeah, we've always held a line on this, but it's a new day — just very practical, very clear, very direct guidance. And then often times you'll say, and if you want, I can share my thought. You'll give me the history and then stop talking — which is fascinating — and then be like, well, here's what I'm thinking, what do you think? But you're gracious enough not to go straight into, let me tell you what you should do.
 
Frank: Yeah. Because here's what I want — I want you to have freedom. It's fine if you know how I've handled it historically, and then you have the option of either doing that or doing it some other way. This would be the point of inflection for you to stop doing it that way and start doing it another way if you want to. Or if you just want to say, gosh, I don't have a better idea than that, let's just keep doing it that way for a while. But you've always got that option, and I want you to always have that option. So when I give context, it's just so that you don't go blind — and maybe go 180 degrees over here and run right into a truck, if you'd known what I knew historically. And that's all I'm trying to do is give you the context to make a better decision, not so much to do it the way I did it. You know me, I'm just not a we've always done it that way kind of guy. That's not my thing. I want to do it the best way.
 
Jim: What, as we wrap up, would you say to leaders that are navigating transition or about to navigate some kind of transition? What are those nuggets to summarize what we've experienced?
 
Frank: Yeah. For the leader who's doing the handoff, just make sure you're ready for it. And not just you — talk to your wife, assuming you're married, your spouse. You've probably got two or three trusted friends you could ask. And if you've got a counselor, a regular therapist that you're working with, let them help you with that as well. Because if you can't let go of the baton, then there's no reason for you even trying to give it away. It's not going to go well. It's going to be worse. But being ready to fully release the baton so that it can be embraced by your successor is probably the greatest gift you can give — and I think it is the key to a healthy succession.
 
Jim: That is so good, Frank. Thank you for being transparent. Thinking about this a year later — we're still on the same path. Things are going really well. Still having a good time.
 
Frank: Yeah, it's great. Hey guys, this is Romans 12:10. Remember Romans 12:10. When he said, outdo one another in showing honor. You and I have done that exceptionally well. Because I know when I'm not around, you're bragging like crazy on me. And when you're not around, I'm bragging like crazy on you. So remember Romans 12:10. If you can both do Romans 12:10 as you pursue the succession season, I think you've got a much better chance of making it work.
 
Jim: There you go, guys. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Next Sunday Podcast.